[Euge]

Originally posted by Walt
.....then I question why don't you run 10 minute races then?

You could run for more than 5 minutes but the voltage would drop off and you'd be running slower at the 10 minute mark. I was against runnining a 10 minute main against the nitros for this reason, nitro performance is about the same at the 10 minute mark (with a fuel stop) whereas an electric's performance drops off considerably. I'd be all for running more than 5 minute mains against other electrics though. I think the 5 minute race was conceived back in the day when we had 1200 mAh cells.

and yeah, you could gear accordingly to use up all your 3300 mAh by gearing up. at a set voltage, max current draw is @ 0 rpm. Guys who run mod motors gear to use all their voltage up in 5 minutes because their motors can draw much more current (depending on the wind). A stock motor will melt @ the current required to use up 3300 mAh in 5 minutes. A 27T motor has way too much resistance compared to a low wind mod. That's why after you run a stock race for 5 minutes, most racers have more than half their mAh left over.

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by Walt
Howard: I didn't even notice any shrink wrap with my batteries... maybe I didn't get any? And, as Euge correctly stated, you can equalize your batteries after the pack is assembled, so just go ahead and assemble them... just do your best to solder to them while heating up the cell as little as possible (tough to do). If you want to equalize them, you don't need a special discharge tray made of light bulbs. Just a simple resistor will do and you can monitor voltage with any simple volt meter (that I assume you have.. if you don't, get one... they are cheap and a tool that every RC racer should have for basic trouble shooting).

I think I will have to SEE it in person to completely understand the whole process, like you, I found electrical way more complicated then Nitro.......just a lot of preparation and beyond knowledge for just a hobby.

[Nexus]

euge knows this is my style....charge and run your car. at the level we race at most guys will not even notice the difference between equalized cells and non-equalized. that's more about maintainence.

you actually don't have to know that much...i think alot of people just take it a few steps to far and the results don't necessarily turn into better lap times.

I like to keep it simple stupid...KISS technique.

i will always refer to the 'bucket' racer as a testiment to this KISS technique...that guys is to fast and he keeps it simple.

charging info...

http://www.fukuyamaracing.com/page3.html

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by Nexus
http://www.fukuyamaracing.com/page3.html

Hmmmmm, stupid me.....I don't even realize there is a page for charging from Fukuyama......I think I got the "stupid" part right from the KISS technique....LOL

I just started up my micro with electrical taped TIRES and do the drifting in my basement track.....I think I just invented a differnet kind of racing for micro (Drift racing).........I love it.

[Euge]

nexus is 100% correct. I enjoy thinking about this stuff, but the actual benefits are probably debateable. You guys are good drivers already, so you should already be plenty fast.

So, just do what nexus said....charge and go! One of the fastest guys at Venture doesn't do any battery maintenence. He's just a really great driver.

[Rookie Solara]

Thanks guys..........I think after all the reading, I would just say....screw it, too much to handle, just charged and hope the battery don't dumped on me....

Beside, 3300 mah running a 5 mintues Q and M.....I don't think that required a lot of maintanence......what 3300 battery cannot last 5 minutes (if properly geared correctly).......?

Mab_man20..........I think I'be got you the computer problem resolved..........this morning, when I tried to clean my other room for my "Soon to be pain in the butt daughter/son"....I found my wife's old Pentium 1 120mhz laptop with Window 98 and still in perfect working order (w/CD rom or disk drive).......that computer is worth like $200 and is collecting dust, I am not going to sell it but I think I don't mind to let you guys use it or at least try the Alycat software ASAP....

However, 1 problem, that computer has only 16meg ram, not like what Alycat said 64 meg requirement.....so, you can either spend $100 to upgrade the memory, or give it a try and see 16meg will work or not....

Anyhow, let me know.....

Howard

[mab_man20]

Wow, lots to comment on!

Things to know about batteries: Discharge the night before the race. Day of the race, peak the battery try to time it so it comes off the charger as fresh as possible. After race, discharge if done with the pack for the day, charge it for 10 minutes at whatever amps you normally use. Store in room temperature, not on concrete, and start the cycle again. If you dont race every week, try cycling the packs 1-2 times on the off weekend. If your not racing for a while, charge completely. Let batteries cool naturally, do NOT put on fans. No definitive proof of this, but promatch advises it. Often the second charge will have a little more punch.
Charge anywhere from 5-6 amps.

Rookie: Cool, could you bring it buy the store early this week so i can try it out? A memory upgrade shouldnt be that much, maybe 50.


History of race length. For years all offroad races and TC were 4 minutes. When 2000 cells came out ifmar decided to lengthen the races to 5 minutes. With the advent of more powerful batteries this question has been raised over and over. I agree with the majority in that races should stay at 5 minutes. When you start getting longer than that the quality of your batteries becomes a serious issue. Suddenly you must buy new packs all the time and a .01 volt per cell can mean the difference between winning and being in the C main. Battery wars hurt the hobby back in the day, i dont want it to happen again.

[Euge]

Originally posted by mab_man20
I agree with the majority in that races should stay at 5 minutes. When you start getting longer than that the quality of your batteries becomes a serious issue. Suddenly you must buy new packs all the time and a .01 volt per cell can mean the difference between winning and being in the C main. Battery wars hurt the hobby back in the day, i dont want it to happen again.

well said. And batteries will lose runtime as they get used. The average racer cannot afford to buy new packs every 4 or 6 months to stay in the battery wars. 5 minutes is good, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish I could race for 1 or 2 more minutes.

Walt, curiously I had a dream last night that I bought a nitro and it ran flawlessly.

[Walt]

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
Mab_man20..........I think I'be got you the computer problem resolved..........this morning, when I tried to clean my other room for my "Soon to be pain in the butt daughter/son"....I found my wife's old Pentium 1 120mhz laptop with Window 98 and still in perfect working order (w/CD rom or disk drive).......that computer is worth like $200 and is collecting dust, I am not going to sell it but I think I don't mind to let you guys use it or at least try the Alycat software ASAP....

However, 1 problem, that computer has only 16meg ram, not like what Alycat said 64 meg requirement.....so, you can either spend $100 to upgrade the memory, or give it a try and see 16meg will work or not....

Anyhow, let me know.....

Howard

You can try that computer, but I think that the memory will definitely need to be increased, and it's actually pushing it on the slow side too. It's worth a try, but I bet if you ask at your next race if anyone has an old computer you can have, you'll get something even a little bit better.

And Howard... baby's aren't always a pain in the butt... mine crawled today for the first time, and it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. You'll still have fun, it will just be different fun, and you'll still be able to race once in a while I'm sure.

Thanks all for the battery advice. It's been a long time since I've done this, but it's starting to come back to me. So, now that we've covered batteries and chargers, who wants to educate me on motors (break in, spring/brush tuning, rebuilding, etc.)? You can either keep it generic for now, or specific knowing I'll be running the 19 turn 'spec' motor out at AJ's.

I'll let you guys know on Monday or Tuesday (I'm off Monday so don't know if I'll have a chance to get on the forum) how Brian and I did at AJ's tomorrow.

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by Walt
And Howard... baby's aren't always a pain in the butt... mine crawled today for the first time, and it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. You'll still have fun, it will just be different fun, and you'll still be able to race once in a while I'm sure.

Yes...thanks for the advise, and I knew I want the baby on day one, since I love taking care of baby.....but "Wife" is still getting me worry recently, the baby is doing all these "1,2 punch" every night like 12:00, 2:00 4:00 and 6:00 in the morning....and countless in the rest of the day....now, I have a very good feeling it is not a "SHE"......that might be a "HE" and practicing some SOCCER move or KARATE CHOP in wife's stomach.

Good luck tomorrow to you and Brian.....tell me after 16 years of waiting, can you still get your finger on the throttle for the the 12th scale...? I am sure you are OK since you've been practicing on the MICRO, I think 12th is just a bit more difficult then MICRO, and that makes Micro fun....

[TRF Drive Hard]

Hey Rookie... i hear you have the m18 on order... so are you the guy to hook me up with one? and if so, how much and where to send payment? thanks

ted

[Walt]

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
Good luck tomorrow to you and Brian.....tell me after 16 years of waiting, can you still get your finger on the throttle for the the 12th scale...? I am sure you are OK since you've been practicing on the MICRO, I think 12th is just a bit more difficult then MICRO, and that makes Micro fun....

Actually, I think that the micros at Tinley are more difficult, now that I've done both. The Tinley track is just so tight... no room for error. If you can run fast and clean with a modified micro at Tinley, I think you can do just about anything in RC.

Anyways, my return to 1/12th scale was a lot of fun. I put that car down on the track and it was like I never stopped racing 1/12th. The car handled great right 'out of the box'. I deserved to finish somewhere between 2nd and 4th, but I somehow managed to win. I know that the top qualifier was complaining of radio hits during the main. In honesty, if he wasn't having problems, I really didn't have anything for him... he qualified 9 seconds ahead of me on a track where we were turning 12.0 laps, so 3/4 lap ahead of me. I qualified 3rd, with 2nd through 4th within 1.5 seconds of each other.

I'm not sure how Brian ended up, but he was doing pretty well in the rubber tire stock motor touring car class.

My car felt like it was handling great, but I was way low on power compared to the fastest guys, so I definitely need that motor education (and maybe some more battery discussion).

I know I could have geared up more. The largest pinion I had was 26 teeth (with my 100 tooth spur), and it was really slow. I borrowed a 30 tooth from someone and the car was still slow on the straights, and I still had 1500+ mAh left in the pack after the 5 minute races. Other guys were running up around 33-34 teeth, but the biggest I could fit in my 12L was the 30 tooth, so I just stuck with it. I'll get a smaller spur for next time (motor couldn't move any further forward than it already was).

I'm sure I need a little more gear, but the other guys are adjusting the spring tension and the types of brushes, plus the timing is adjustable on these motors, but I can't remember what to do with any of those adjustments based on how the motor is running. Also, I wonder if 3300 mAh NiMH's are the best choice for 5 minute long 'spec' races. I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible to pull 3300 mAh out of those batteries in only 5 minutes. Might be better off with a high capacity NiCD and really gearing up and pulling some current?

I don't think I'll be able to race out there next Sunday, but I'm going to try to make every other Sunday. I think part of the reason yesterday was so fun was just the fact that I wasn't running the races... nice to be one of the guys just racing again. Just need to get approval from my lovely wife...

Oh, and one complaint about the Integy charger.. the 'beep' is WAY too loud when you make selections or when it's done charging... need to open that sucker up and do something to make it quieter.

[chicago rc]

AJ's was a lot of fun. Big track, nice layout with a decent straight and some turns that you could really fly through if you hit the them right. In the stock rubber tire class we were turning 15 sec. laps, about 20 laps in 5 minutes.

I ran 2 quals with a 23/100 gear set-up, way too low. I went up to a 30/100 in the 3rd qual and still did not make up much time but was going faster as I started banging into stuff a little more compared to a near perfect run with the 23/100. I too had enough battery left to run another 5 minutes if I wanted to so the gearing was my issue. It's a stock class so that makes sense!

I finished 2nd in the main, there was only an A main with 7 drivers in it but I had qualified behind the top guy within 4 seconds. I was happy. You can use tire compound there and w/o it you will be in last place! My only complaints were Walt's loud beeping charger :-) and the smoke in there, it was like being in a bar for 8 hours. I guess there is some kind of rule that R/C guys must be smokers. Anyway, great time there and worth the drive to DeKalb. AJ runs a good program, sweet facility, well lit, lots of benches, hobby shop on site, some food & drinks (nothing like the bowling alley), and a good group of racers.

Photos from the day will go up soon.

Brian
www.chicagorc.com

[T-Racer]

Ok Guys

As you all no Walt is modest. Let me tell you the truth after 12 years off from 1/12 scale racing Walt kick some major A-- there at Aj's Raceway. The A- main was the most exciting race i seen in a while. oh by the way Nick Smirt 2nd and Frank Stiubitsh 3rd and Walt 1st. All gas racers from Chicagoland RC Raceway.


T-Racer

[Rookie Solara]

Wow.........I am glad that I got the 12th scale now...............and I can't wait to be there on 23th or 30th.....

Walt....go to rctek and take a look at the last 10 pages of the VENTURE thread, there are ppl talked about the TRINITY springs and brushes on the 19T motor, I am sure you know....you are not suppose to use the same spring and same brushes on the positive and negative side....I remembered it was some green springs and pink springs with some # of brushes........that is the key.

So, what pinion do you think I should get now...? I know the SW12 I've got can push the motor all the way back to gear with something like 34T............please advise.

Oh, also, my AE charger (which is the same as yours) those BEEP sound is loud as hell too...........

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by TA03 Drive Hard
Hey Rookie... i hear you have the m18 on order... so are you the guy to hook me up with one? and if so, how much and where to send payment? thanks

ted

Ted...yes, just send me a email, and I will leave you a spot........only if I have any left.

I cannot tell you the price, nor the release day for now........but should be end of this month or early x'mas

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by Walt
I know I could have geared up more. The largest pinion I had was 26 teeth (with my 100 tooth spur), and it was really slow. I borrowed a 30 tooth from someone and the car was still slow on the straights, and I still had 1500+ mAh left in the pack after the 5 minute races. Other guys were running up around 33-34 teeth, but the biggest I could fit in my 12L was the 30 tooth, so I just stuck with it. I'll get a smaller spur for next time (motor couldn't move any further forward than it already was).

I saw that guy "STEVE" again at Al's last week.........he mentioned, some fast guy will use the PRO-MATCH Ni-CD that will last approx 5:30 mins but those batteries are way BEYOND the 3300 (due to the HIGH OUTPUT - more punch compare to nimh)........

So, did you guys see this STEVE..? He is like mid 40 and need to walk with a stick....but he sounds like he know alot of 12th scale.

Also....what transponder are they using..? AMB or AMB digital? Can I use the personal there?

So........who is going next week and do they run any practice on SAT at all?

[chicago rc]

I saw Steve there. Didn't know which car was his though. And AJ's has the older AMB system so no PT's.

On another note....

I sent out the brand new Chicago R/C Newsletter on Nov. 7th. Could you guys let me know if you received it? If you did not, you can go to chicagorc.com and just type in your e-mail on the home page then click "Add Me". The 1st issue had some good info in it, the Dec. issue and beyond will be even better.

The track owners are starting to cooperate with me so I should be able to provide detailed, up-to-date race info on ALL tracks from now on.

Brian
www.chicagorc.com

[Euge]

Nexus and I raced at Trackside on sunday and had a great day. The only complaint that we had was that we could hear Walt's beeping charger from Brookfield, WI.

Turnout was awesome. 12 heats. 2 sportsman (novice) classes, 4 heats of stock rubber, the rest I can't remember, but I know they had stock foam, modified foam, and 2 heats of 1/12th scale using stock motors.

They spread out the racers for the qualifiers and pack the heats. There were 9 drivers in the stock rubber A main and 6 in the B main, and I think 5 or 6 in the C main. They consolidated the two novice heats into one main for them.

Nexus had a great day and qualified into the A main. I had a tough qualifying day and only made the B main. I was able to partially redeem myself in the B main. I started last on the grid and caught the leader. I made a few mistakes and ended up finishing 2nd. Congrats to Nexus though.

Walt, the motor theory questions are probably all out there on the internet. But if you guys are running adjustable timed motors, I'd bet money that the guys who pulled you on the straight had their timing dialed in. Gearing has a lot to do with it as well, but I'd also look at what they're running their timing at. One quick and dirty way to do it is to loosen the endbell so it's still on, but you can rotate it. Hook up the motor to your adjustable power supply and apply 3V. rotate the endbell while it's running and you'll hear the motor speed change. I'm no timing expert, but I believe increasing timing will increase rpm at the cost of some torque. So, similar to gearing up. Perhaps you could get away with leaving the timing at 0 degrees and just do it through gearing, but all I know is that this summer at TP, I had my arcornite 19T timed at about 20 degrees and it was a LOT faster than timed at 0 degrees. Also to note, increasing timing will wear on the comm more.
As far as maintenence goes, I'd keep a decent supply of brushes as you might change them each race day. I think most race compound brushes only last 5-8 runs then they'll still work, but performance will be lacking. when you change brushes, true the comm and break in the motor by running it for about 2 minutes at 3V under no load. This will seat the brushes. There's more to tuning a motor, like aligning the brush hoods and centering the armature in the magnetic field, polishing the bushings and/or armature shaft, tweaking the brush tension, using comm drops, etc.... but fresh brushes and a fresh comm are the best ways to tune your motor.
The batteries of choice are GP3300's. I don't think you could even buy NiCds anymore. Why are you so intent on having 0 mAh at the end of the 5 mins? If you want to do that, you could gear your car so you're going 5mph at full throttle the whole 5 mins. You'll be spinning the motor so fast, you'll probably run it down to 0 mAh at the end of the 5 mins. Or you could superglue the armature in the motor housing, drawing obscene current and running down the pack in seconds. But then again the ESC current limiter would probably kick in. You basically gear your motor so that you hit top speed at the end of the straight. Sometimes I'll gear low to get a better drive out of the turns.
Any battery capacity you have left shouldn't matter. You should gear to your motor and the track, not to your batteries. 3300 mAh is waay more capacity than you need unless you're running a low turn motor. Now, even if you use just half your battery capacity, that's fine. You should think about it as average voltage over the 5 mins. true, 1700 mAh Ni-Cd batteries will be close to 0 mAh at the end of 5 mins and I think Ni-Cd batteries have a higher initial voltage, but what was the average voltage over the 5 mins? a 3300mAh battery will have a higher average voltage, especially if you use just half of the capacity.

[Euge]

this is another informative site about motors.

http://www.rccars.com/forums/forumdi...?s=&forumid=19

[Rookie Solara]

Originally posted by Euge
Now, even if you use just half your battery capacity, that's fine. You should think about it as average voltage over the 5 mins. true, 1700 mAh Ni-Cd batteries will be close to 0 mAh at the end of 5 mins and I think Ni-Cd batteries have a higher initial voltage, but what was the average voltage over the 5 mins? a 3300mAh battery will have a higher average voltage, especially if you use just half of the capacity.

Euge.........one thing I always want to know, like above said, after a full race day and all 3 of my 3300 packs are 1/2 full (or 1/2 empty).......and I have 6 more days to wait untill next race day, WHAT should I do for those batteries...?

(1) Discharge them and CHARGE them full and let it sit and on SAT night, I go PEAK them again?

(2) Just discharge them and charge them on SAT night before race...?

(3) Since they are NIMH, I don't have to discharge, just CHARGE them full and peak them on SAT night?

(4) Nothing...........just charge them on SAT night before race...

Thanks..........................and I read the RCCARS forum about motor, and you told me elect is not that HARD at all...........come on, you knew you are kidding, right? That is a full college electrical engineering degree courses over that fourm.......JUST MOTOR only........not counting BATTERIES yet.

[Euge]

Rookie, here is a good article on maintaining NiMH batts:

http://www.rccaraction.com/rc/articles/NiMHbatcare1.asp


by the way, all I do is after I race, discharge the pack to 0.9V per cell or 5.4V for 6 cells or 3.6 for 4 cells.

If possible, cycle the pack (discharge then charge) the night before, but always return the pack to 0.9V per cell.

That article claims that if you leave NiMH cells fully charged for any extended length of time (overnight), the cells will turn flat (lose voltage) and never acheive the peak voltage it once did.

If you want to keep it simple, the day of the race, charge, run the pack while practicing, then when you're done practicing, discharge, let it rest, then charge. at the end of the day just discharge to 0.9V per cell. I hope your charger has an adjustable discharge voltage. If not, just put half a charge into it (try and keep track of mAh). You can do this by fully charging and discharging half (1500 mAh). I think most chargers keep track of mAh at least.

[Euge]

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
Thanks..........................and I read the RCCARS forum about motor, and you told me elect is not that HARD at all...........come on, you knew you are kidding, right? That is a full college electrical engineering degree courses over that fourm.......JUST MOTOR only........not counting BATTERIES yet.

cmon, nitro is just as complicated. needles? I thought that was for drugs? RC as a hobby in general doesn't take much effort to get into it, but to do really everything to the TOPS, you have to put a lot of effort.

[chicago rc]

Let me just remind everyone that a perfect driving line lap after lap, clean passes w/o crashing, and a fairly well maintained car will win the race over a perfect battery pack, tuned motor, and $1000 in hop-ups. I lost the main yesterday by 12 seconds and had one crash during the race that took at least that long since my body jammed up in the tire and the marshall stood there looking at it as if the race was paused or something.

Of course driving the car for hours to get better is fun but we need something to do during the week so I guess that's what hop-ups are for

[Rookie Solara]

Euge....thanks, and I have 1 question, on my Reedy charger, the discharge feature, all I can adjust is the AMP, (just like charging, I can adjust from 01amp to 20 amps)..........ok....so, the HIGHER the AMPS to discharge, the faster that I can discharge my batteries, right...?

I am sure I cannot adjust the VOLTAGE of the discharge feature, nor the "discharge 1/2 of the pack only" feature..........the Reedy charge was PRE_SET to 0.9V cuttoff already, so when my pack is done discharging....it average CELL should be around 0.9V each.

Now..........how can I find out, what AMPS should I discharge?