Chicago Racing (track info inside) - Page 92

Euge · #**2276** 11-17-2003, 06:27 PM

yep, mpc products. who do you know? I've been here for quite a while.

mab_man20 · #**2277** 11-17-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Euge
The arcornite is a fast motor if you crank up the timing. But like Walt said, it's pointless if you technically have to run a fixed endbell motor.

But FYI, the difference between an arcornite at 0 degrees and one at 20 degrees is HUGE, so if you didn't play with the motor timing out of the box, it'll be slow compared to any other motor. Anyone know what the C2 timing is at? I'm guessing somewhere around 20 degrees.

My guess would be 24 degrees. That would be where Id start with the arconite.

SO we got 4 TC racers so far for wednesday?

Euge · #**2278** 11-17-2003, 09:41 PM

yeah, hopefully it'll be more than 4.

Rookie Solara · #**2279** 11-18-2003, 11:58 AM

Yeah, C2 is fixed at 24 degree........but again, no one stopping you to open up the end ball and do your own TIMING on C2, I think almost everyone did that already.

Still trying to put everything together, and yesterday, I soldered a 4 cell 3300 set and give it a charge, the package said I should charge it at 6 AMPS, but I am not completely comfortable to charge it 6 AMPS for the first time, so I charged it at 4 AMPS.........however, 45 minutes later, it finally peaked, but here is delima........my pack is KINDA HOT (not super HOT, but HOT enough that I don't think it is right).......and on the charger, I read 3780mah on the final charge.................now....my packs are 3300 mah only........it ended up 3780 mah? Is that normal..? If I see 3400 or 3500, I understand.......but 3780? That explained why they are HOT........

Now....what I did wrong...? I used the Reedy Charger same as Nexus...it is no toy r'us charger (even though one of the exhaust fan is busted already), and I charged it using LOWER amps then it suppose to.........is that the problem? Please advise.

Euge · #**2280** 11-18-2003, 12:18 PM

the battery will get kind of hot. use your temperature gun from nitro and measure the temp and tell us what temp it's at. I can't remember what temp is acceptable. might be around 160F? maybe someone else can tell.

and if you charge at a lower current, you'll gain runtime, which is the mAh I believe. try it at 5.5A and let us know what the numbers are.

warpainter · #**2281** 11-18-2003, 12:20 PM

howard aj told us any 19 turn with a fixeed endbell (no ajustable timing) the reedy is just a new spec (fixed endbell)motor, but there there are other 19 fixed end bell out there but the c2 still seems to be the one to beet

Euge · #**2282** 11-18-2003, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
Yeah, C2 is fixed at 24 degree........but again, no one stopping you to open up the end ball and do your own TIMING on C2, I think almost everyone did that already.

eh? that makes no sense. everyone at AJ's buys a fixed timing motor then defeats it somehow? by cutting off the tab or somehow cranking the endbell? How are they doing this? And if they're adjusting the timing by messing with the endbell, why not just allow adjustable endbell motors like the Arcornite?

I know there are ways to increase timing by cutting the brushes in a certain way, and I think that's legal.

mab_man20 · #**2283** 11-18-2003, 12:27 PM

Way back in the day half cut brushes were really big in stock motors. They looked like:

_
| |_
| |
|__|

This tricked the motor into thinking it had about 3-5 extra degrees of timing. Unfortunately you sacraficed brush/comm contact area and therefore max current.
Im with walt in the thinking that cheating defeats the purpose, i always just think of cheating at solitare...it just removes the challange.

AreCee · #**2284** 11-18-2003, 12:36 PM

Euge,

A couple things: I remember many years ago when we ran sealed end bell stock motors some racers would "crank" the armature to advance the timing. This didn't work so well most of the time. Another way was to use brushes that were cut to advance the timing but the comm would get more wear. That worked a little until the brush wore down and the comm would be shot.

Battery temp: I think I remember reading this in one of Trinity's instruction sheet that the temp for a NiMH shouldn't exceed 120 F. Charging at 5 A or more is OK but you need to turn down the Delta V to about 3 to 5 MV which should help keep the battery's internal temperature down. The problem is that you don't want the internal temp to go real high but by the time you can feel the heat on the outside means the the inside was cooking much longer. I rarely charge my batteries with more than 5A and that would be to peak them just prior to a race (like less than 5 minutes to the start).

Walt · #**2285** 11-18-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
Yeah, C2 is fixed at 24 degree........but again, no one stopping you to open up the end ball and do your own TIMING on C2, I think almost everyone did that already.

Still trying to put everything together, and yesterday, I soldered a 4 cell 3300 set and give it a charge, the package said I should charge it at 6 AMPS, but I am not completely comfortable to charge it 6 AMPS for the first time, so I charged it at 4 AMPS.........however, 45 minutes later, it finally peaked, but here is delima........my pack is KINDA HOT (not super HOT, but HOT enough that I don't think it is right).......and on the charger, I read 3780mah on the final charge.................now....my packs are 3300 mah only........it ended up 3780 mah? Is that normal..? If I see 3400 or 3500, I understand.......but 3780? That explained why they are HOT........

Now....what I did wrong...? I used the Reedy Charger same as Nexus...it is no toy r'us charger (even though one of the exhaust fan is busted already), and I charged it using LOWER amps then it suppose to.........is that the problem? Please advise.

What was your delta peak voltage set to? I've been using about 6mV per cell on these packs. If you use too much, it will take your charger too long to detect full charge and overcharge (and overheat) your cells.

AreCee · #**2286** 11-18-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Euge
yeah, hopefully it'll be more than 4.

I'm going to try to make it. I had a lot of fun racing you and Nexus. I found out why my handling became worse on the third qualifier and the main, I had a broken steering rack.

Nexus · #**2287** 11-18-2003, 05:30 PM

Rookie.

Here is what's recommended for batteries. This is from a Fukuyama Racing one of the up and coming battery matchers in the U.S. and Asia. They have a ton of guys running them and one of their sponsored racers placed 4th at the Reedy Race in Asia....so overall their recommendations are pretty well respected.

Peak detect cut-off ( voltage threshold ):
We suggest a .05 ( 50 mv ) for 6 cell packs.
We suggest a .03 ( 30 mv ) for 4 cell packs.

(those could vary depending on ambient temp)

Your cells should be warm to slightly hot but not burning hot. To determine this, the temperature should be between 135f to 155F. If the temperature reaches above 155F, it is suggested that you shut off your charger or turn down your peak detection. Charged packs should be right before you race while the pack is still warm.

i've used these methods and found my packs to be at about 145ish when fully charged.

arecee?
were you at RSJ this past saturday? just wondering who you are...

i might not make it weds cause i've been sick

Rookie Solara · #**2288** 11-18-2003, 11:01 PM

GUys.....thanks for the quick respond, I think we will all learn from each of us....but mostly, from all my MISTAKES.

I think I've got the answer........everyone is correct (except me).....I was charging the 4 cell 3300 battery per REEDY's chargers manual.......it was stated this way.

For 3300mah - charge 4.0 amp
Discharge - 20 amps or less
Over Peak Voltage Cutoff...............THAT IS THE PROBLEM

It said..............3000 mah use 5mv (nexus, you said 50mv, is that a typo or it means something else...?)
But I think 5mv is for SIX 6 GOD DAMN CELLS.........not 4, I think that was the reason why my battery is getting HOTTER then I thought.

Still.........i think the temperarture was like 180........it is HOT, not super HOT........

I knew my charging AMP should not be a problem, 4 AMPS for 3300 is like cake.........even Fukuyama recommand 6 AMPS (all over the package).........

I think I just blew $33 last night.........still, 2 more packs to blow, hope better luck tomorrow night.

P.S....just saw Walt thread and he said he used 6mv.........now, tell me, what was my problem.....? Do you think it was because my charger has 1 working exhaust fan, and that made my charger work harder and made my batteries HOTTER....? Please, that POS Reedy charger is like 6 months old and 1 of the fan is broken already....just don't make me buy Japanese brand even on RC stuff....

AreCee · #**2289** 11-18-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nexus
arecee?
were you at RSJ this past saturday? just wondering who you are...

i might not make it weds cause i've been sick

I'm also known as Crash Gordon aka Dave K.

Euge · #**2290** 11-19-2003, 12:41 AM

rookie,

I don't think it was a typo that nexus typed. I use a 0.030 V delta peak for a 6 cell pack. That's the same as 5 mV per cell.

0.050 sounds high though. that's over 8mV per cell.

I don't know about the reedy or integy charger, but I love my pulsar and T35. If I didn't buy a T35, I would have bought a second pulsar.

also, your battery that was hot is probably fine. I like to track battery stats from the day I get them so I can see when performance drops off. My 1 yr old packs are down in voltage, so I might pick up some new packs.

Walt · #**2291** 11-19-2003, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
GUys.....thanks for the quick respond, I think we will all learn from each of us....but mostly, from all my MISTAKES.

I think I've got the answer........everyone is correct (except me).....I was charging the 4 cell 3300 battery per REEDY's chargers manual.......it was stated this way.

For 3300mah - charge 4.0 amp
Discharge - 20 amps or less
Over Peak Voltage Cutoff...............THAT IS THE PROBLEM

It said..............3000 mah use 5mv (nexus, you said 50mv, is that a typo or it means something else...?)
But I think 5mv is for SIX 6 GOD DAMN CELLS.........not 4, I think that was the reason why my battery is getting HOTTER then I thought.

Still.........i think the temperarture was like 180........it is HOT, not super HOT........

I knew my charging AMP should not be a problem, 4 AMPS for 3300 is like cake.........even Fukuyama recommand 6 AMPS (all over the package).........

I think I just blew $33 last night.........still, 2 more packs to blow, hope better luck tomorrow night.

P.S....just saw Walt thread and he said he used 6mv.........now, tell me, what was my problem.....? Do you think it was because my charger has 1 working exhaust fan, and that made my charger work harder and made my batteries HOTTER....? Please, that POS Reedy charger is like 6 months old and 1 of the fan is broken already....just don't make me buy Japanese brand even on RC stuff....

Howard: make sure you keep 'mV per cell' and 'mV for the entire pack' separate in your head. With my charger (and I think yours), you put in the mV/cell and the number of cells and the charger multiplies the two numbers together for you to give you your total delta voltage. On my 'Toys R Us' charger, you have to do the math yourself and put in the total pack delta voltage.

So pretty much all the numbers are pretty close. Fukuyamma seems the highest, at about 8 mV per cell (to get their 50 mV or 30 mV per 6 or 4 cell packs respectively). They are trying to get the maximum voltage though, and probably don't care too much about cell life (especially since they are selling batteries).

I've had pretty good luck so far with 6mV per cell (24 mV total for a 4-cell battery pack). My batteries are right around 130F when finished charging, and when I discharge at 30 amps they reach about 175F. I'm cutting my discharge current down to 20 amps so they don't get quite as hot, and since that rate more closely represents what happens to the batteries in actual use. If your battery pack got up to 185 F while charging they are probably still OK, but it's probably not a good idea to keep on doing that. Turn down the delta peak voltage until they are getting close to 3300 mAh and not quite as warm.

Also, remember that the ideal delta voltage goes up as your charging current goes up, so Fukuyamma's 8mV per cell might be good for their recommended 6 amp charge rate, and 5 or 6 mV is probably better for the 4-5 amp rate I've been using.

xxx mike · #**2292** 11-19-2003, 08:11 AM

Hi Walt. I am just sitting around considering coming to run 1/12 also with you. Just wanted to try and get the low-down on what I need to buy to come out and race with a competetive car. I still have all my gas stuff, so just considering adding on a car and some batteries. Maybe shoot me an email if you have the time.

Thanks

Mike

Rookie Solara · #**2293** 11-19-2003, 11:20 AM

I think my brain works much better at around 3:00 to 4:30am..........this morning around 3, just got up for absolutely no reason and decided to solder the other 2 packs of batteries, and of course, try to charge the batteries ONE more time and see which one will blow up first.......and I FINALLY figured out what was my problem.

My problem, is actually NOT a problem, it is just my MISUNDERSTANDING about electricity........if you guys recall, I was saying my battery pack was charged at 4 amps and discharge at 20 amps and delta peak set at 5mv, I was set to CYCLE mode to 1 time..........the final result was like 185 degree, and I realized that the battery was just finished DISCHARGING, instead of charging.......and I realized one more thing is the battery will get HOTTER after discharging then charging........THAT IS new to me, I never realized that discharging will get the pack much HOTTER then charging......(the result I figured that out was I try to ran the car this morning and the pack has no juice inside at all....)

So now, I know my charger and fine, all the batteries are fine.........it is just simply I was thinking the wrong information at the beginning.

However, now, I would like to have a OVERALL AGREED charging information so I can start charging SAT night....(again, they are all 4 cell Fukuyama Pro-match)

Charge - 6 amps
Discharge - 20 amps (that is the MAX for Reedy charge, Walt, your charger can go higher, but not mine)
Delta peak - the manual said 5mv per cell, everyone.....agree? (or Higher....lower?)
Trickle Current.............I know that is not important since I should unplug the pack after finish charging ASAP...but still, need a number...

Overall, you guys helped me resolved my stupid ass problem.......now, I need my C2, foams and paint the body....maybe I will get up at 3 again tonight to start the body.

Walt/Tim, what time do you guys usually be at AJ...? If you guys get there earlier, can you save me a sit around your pit? Also, do I need to bring my own table...?

Thanks....RS

Walt · #**2294** 11-19-2003, 11:37 AM

Sounds like you are fine now with charging and discharging and your battery temperature.

6 amps still seems a little high for charging, but Fukuyamma recommends it, so it's probably fine. I don't see a problem with a 4 or 5 amp charge rate, unless I'm in a big hurry (6 amp charge rate = 33 minute charge time, 5 amp charge rate = 40 minute charge time, 4 amp charge rate = 50 minute charge time).

5mV/cell is probably good. I was using 6 but will probably drop to 5 as well.

Trickle current: that's easy. Set it to zero. I haven't heard anyone say yet that NiMH batteries like to be trickle charged after being peaked. Just turn it off.

I'm going to try to get to AJ's about 9:30am. He opens the doors at 9am, racing doesn't start until noon, but I want to have some time to run practice since I'm still pretty new to this 1/12th stuff. However, I am planning on bringing along my Dad to check out the racing, and maybe one friend of mine too, so my ability to be 'right on time' will be hampered by having to rely on other people (like my unreliable Dad) to be on time.

No need to bring a table as AJ's has nice benches set up already. He's got chairs there too. But bring a rag for rubbing down your tires, and a small, soft paint brush for cleaning off the car (like I need to tell you that... you bring a brush for cleaning your nitro cars).

Rookie Solara · #**2295** 11-19-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walt
(like I need to tell you that... you bring a brush for cleaning your nitro cars).

That...........you don't have to say more, I am the GOD of brush and strong believer on "ALL SHOW and NO GO" culture.

What time do they usually finish the race....? I have to add 1 hour 15 minutes drive time back to see my understandable wife, just need to watch my time. (how much to race..? 15?)

Walt · #**2296** 11-19-2003, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rookie Solara
That...........you don't have to say more, I am the GOD of brush and strong believer on "ALL SHOW and NO GO" culture.

What time do they usually finish the race....? I have to add 1 hour 15 minutes drive time back to see my understandable wife, just need to watch my time. (how much to race..? 15?)

I heard that they had a lot of people last week running multiple classes, which slows things down a lot (allowing time to charge all those batteries). I don't think they got out until around 6pm. The day I was there we got out at 5:30.

It is $15 to race. And no personal transponders.

T-Racer · #**2297** 11-19-2003, 12:38 PM

Mikee XXX

I run touring car at Ajs. And now i have a 1/12scale car that Frank set up for me if you want to run it Sunday your more then welcome too. You can even ride up with us om Sunday. Get in touch with me and i will tell you where me and Frank meet. I left my phone # with your Dad.

T-racer (Tony G)

warpainter · #**2298** 11-19-2003, 03:36 PM

i dont know were this came from or who started it but were not using any type of cheater 19 turn motoors at ajs and if there is peaple running them that we do not know about they must not be very good , because there getting beat by guys running of the shelve c2s, so that should dispell that rumore.

Walt · #**2299** 11-19-2003, 04:48 PM

The day I was there, I was probably the only one with a 'cheater' motor (the Arcornite), but it was pitifully slow since I had not adjusted the timing, so obviously no one cared about that (even though I did win... it wasn't due to my car's speed, that's for sure).

I really want my car to be legal, and I REALLY like the idea of a 'spec' motor class. Something fast enough to be fun, but not so fast that great batteries are needed, and easy to tech so everyone is on an even playing field. That's pretty much what I'm seeing at AJ's in the spec motor 1/12th class, and that's one of the main reasons why I like it.

I'm looking forward to Sunday. Will you be there Warpainter, and will you have your 1/12th car running? I hope so.

Rookie Solara · #**2300** 11-19-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warpainter
i dont know were this came from or who started it but were not using any type of cheater 19 turn motoors at ajs and if there is peaple running them that we do not know about they must not be very good , because there getting beat by guys running of the shelve c2s, so that should dispell that rumore.

Tim....please accept my appology if my statment was misleaded you and others from AJ about the cheater motor.......what I was trying to say is, most ppl that use C2 does manually adjust the timing even though it was a fixed end balls sytem, but i've got that information from other forum regarding C2 motor....and I assumed everyone will do the same with the C2 motor at AJ...

If everyone does kept the C2 stock....that is a good sign, I know nothing about timing, and was planning to get school by you guys every week.

About Walt's motor...........that was honest mistake, beside, he didn't even adjust the timing at the beginning, and i knew he just got a C2 so he can run the same motor that everyone are running....so am I.

See you all Sunday